+- KittyCatS! Community Forum (https://kittycats.ws/forum)
+-- Forum: KittyCatS Forum (/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Breeding (/forumdisplay.php?fid=5)
+--- Thread: Using Punnett Squares? (/showthread.php?tid=8079)
Pages: 1 2
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - GhostCollective Resident - 03-19-2013 07:45 AM
well that isn't as easy as you make it sound my dear Tad, especially for those of us who are visual learners. I also use a spreadsheet to track who has had what with which partner but nothing to the point of tracking genetics. I think visual aids are a big help especially for those who are new to KC or who are like me and learn better by seeing a visual representation.
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - dakillakm Resident - 03-20-2013 11:06 AM
The Punnett Squares definitely helped me conceptualize the genetic possibilities generally when I first started. I too use a spreadsheet now to keep track of both shown and suspected or proven hidden traits. For me, the spreadsheet does two things a) helps me remember what my sneaky kitties are hiding, especially when a hidden trait pops up that was no where in the pedigree and b) helps me better understand what a pairing might give me and how well a partnership of kitties is going to turn out. This also helps me keep track of what boxes I want from a pairing. I try to keep all the stats of kitties I have inventoried or menageried in a separate sheet as well so I if some trait pops up from a descendent I can always go back and look up the family tree for hiddens.
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - DawnIsabella Heartsong - 03-28-2013 07:46 AM
punnett squares is the only thing i excelled in in my last bio class (what it has been years since highschool) so can't wait to try it with my kitties. Btw wonder if i will get another A when i retake it for my punnett project (SL can be used in school hehehe)
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - Tad Carlucci - 03-28-2013 12:14 PM
The typical presentation of Punnett Squares presumes full, accurate knowledge of the genetics of the parents and aids producing the possible offspring, and the probabilities of each.
With KittyCatS, however, we rarely have full, accurate knowledge. In addition, we're often reversing the question: attempting to determine the genetics in the parents from the observed offspring.
Punnett Squares are one of the representational forms which can help with both questions. There are others. Functionally, all are equivalent. Punnett Squares simply are more useful for those who do better with a graphical representation.
Whichever form you chose for your analysis, you should always remember that you're dealing with "unknowns". While, many times, your analysis can produce a definitive answer, providing a hard value, converting an "unknown" to a "known", most often the best you can do is identify limits and make probabilistic statements.
For example, let's take a Red Tabby with an unknown recessive (hidden) fur and cross it with a Ebony Black Silver, also with an unknown fur.
If the offspring is Red Tabby, we learn nothing. Punnett Squares tell us to expect this half the time.
If the offspring is Burmese Platinum, Punnett Squares tell us it can ONLY have come from the Red Tabby, and that we can expect this the other half of the time. In addition, we've converted the "unknown" for the Red Tabby to a "known": it hides Platinum and cannot hide anything else.
If the offspring is Ebony Black Silver, Punnett Squares tell us we've learned a bit: the Red Tabby cannot hide anything more dominant than Ebony Black Silver. While this does not convert the "unknown" for the Red Tabby to a "known", it does allow us to make a limiting statement: the Red Tabby must hide Ebony Black Silver OR something more recessive.
Finally, if the offspring is Balinese Cream, we learn something about both parents. We still have not converted any "unknowns" to "knowns", but Punnett Squares tell us that BOTH parents must have a recessive (hidden) of Balinese Cream OR something more recessive. They tell us ONE of the parents hides EXACTLY Balinese Cream, but do not indicate which (the other may hide Balinese Cream, as well, but might hide something even more recessive). In this case, we're able to make limiting statement about both parents: they hide Balinese Cream OR something more recessive.
It's also good to apply the knowledge gained to the offspring. Those offspring who were NOT Red Tabby, cannot EVER hide Red Tabby. Unlike some other breedables we see on Second Life, it is completely impossible for those offspring to EVER pass Red Tabby. Quite simply, if they had carried the Red Tabby gene, they would have BEEN Red Tabby. So, if we want Red Tabby from those offspring, we'll need to locate a mate for them which CAN (or does) carry Red Tabby. Yes, you can say they have Red Tabby in the background, but that means NOTHING to their potential offspring. Unlike those other breedables, KittyCatS *NEVER* "reach back" to pull out something more dominant which was lost.
Of course, this is all well and good when we're looking at just one pairing, and their offspring.
Things get a lot more complex when we take those cats to other pairings.
For example, let's say we actually had those parents produce a Balinese Cream. Let's take that Red Tabby (who we now know hides Cream or better) and cross it with a Blue Tabby. Say the offspring is Bengal Snow. This tells us that the Blue Tabby hides Bengal Snow, exactly, and nothing else! Why? Because Bengal Snow is not Balinese Cream, and it's not Red Tabby, and it's not recessive to Balinese Cream .. so it cannot have come from the Red Tabby .. it can only have come from the Blue Tabby.
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - Winter Phoenix - 03-28-2013 09:01 PM
(03-28-2013 12:14 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote: For example, let's take a Red Tabby with an unknown recessive (hidden) fur and cross it with a Ebony Black Silver, also with an unknown fur.
If the offspring is Red Tabby, we learn nothing. Punnett Squares tell us to expect this half the time.If the offspring is Burmese Platinum, Punnett Squares tell us it can ONLY have come from the Red Tabby, and that we can expect this the other half of the time. In addition, we've converted the "unknown" for the Red Tabby to a "known": it hides Platinum and cannot hide anything else.If the offspring is Ebony Black Silver, Punnett Squares tell us we've learned a bit: the Red Tabby cannot hide anything more dominant than Ebony Black Silver. While this does not convert the "unknown" for the Red Tabby to a "known", it does allow us to make a limiting statement: the Red Tabby must hide Ebony Black Silver OR something more recessive.Finally, if the offspring is Balinese Cream, we learn something about both parents. We still have not converted any "unknowns" to "knowns", but Punnett Squares tell us that BOTH parents must have a recessive (hidden) of Balinese Cream OR something more recessive. They tell us ONE of the parents hides EXACTLY Balinese Cream, but do not indicate which (the other may hide Balinese Cream, as well, but might hide something even more recessive). In this case, we're able to make limiting statement about both parents: they hide Balinese Cream OR something more recessive.It's also good to apply the knowledge gained to the offspring. Those offspring who were NOT Red Tabby, cannot EVER hide Red Tabby. Unlike some other breedables we see on Second Life, it is completely impossible for those offspring to EVER pass Red Tabby. Quite simply, if they had carried the Red Tabby gene, they would have BEEN Red Tabby. So, if we want Red Tabby from those offspring, we'll need to locate a mate for them which CAN (or does) carry Red Tabby. Yes, you can say they have Red Tabby in the background, but that means NOTHING to their potential offspring. Unlike those otherbreedables, KittyCatS *NEVER* "reach back" to pull out something more dominant which was lost.Of course, this is all well and good when we're looking at just one pairing, and their offspring.Things get a lot more complex when we take those cats to other pairings.For example, let's say we actually had those parents produce a Balinese Cream. Let's take that Red Tabby (who we now know hides Cream or better) and cross it with a Blue Tabby. Say the offspring is Bengal Snow. This tells us that the Blue Tabby hides Bengal Snow, exactly, and nothing else! Why? Because Bengal Snow is not Balinese Cream, and it's not Red Tabby, and it's not recessive to Balinese Cream .. so it cannot have come from the Red Tabby .. it can only have come from the Blue Tabby.
. . .OF COURSE!
im a fan Tad, keep it up.
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - Tai Galicia - 04-09-2013 11:12 AM
Hi, I'm new to kitty cat breeding. Is there a list of possbile traits and what are starter coats? I use a punnett square method when I breed my amaretto horses...and would like to do the same with cats. I need to know what traits are currently possible.
I've looked on this website at the pages with the tails/ears/coats, etc....are those all the possible traits? Which ones are starter traits and don't count towards the trait count?
Tai
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - Nenya Eun - 04-09-2013 11:51 AM
Hi Tai,
Welcome to KittyCatS.
There https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0_Wqb33nVpnZWYwNGViMGMtYWU4ZS00ZjAyLTk4OTctMzk2YzljODliMDhm/edit?pli=1 you can find a list of the various traits, ranked from more dominant to more recessive.
The genesis traits are
Fur: Genesis - (Coco - Diamond - Domino - Flame - Smokey - II - III)
Eyes: Genesis (Earth - Meadow - Odessey - Sunshine - Water)
(Curious|Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Guitar)
Nen
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - Tad Carlucci - 04-09-2013 08:36 PM
There is a more complete answer in the FAQ
RE: Using Punnett Squares? - Tai Galicia - 04-09-2013 08:38 PM
TY so much!
(04-09-2013 11:51 AM)Nenya Eun Wrote: Hi Tai,
Welcome to KittyCatS.
There https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B0_Wqb33nVpnZWYwNGViMGMtYWU4ZS00ZjAyLTk4OTctMzk2YzljODliMDhm/edit?pli=1 you can find a list of the various traits, ranked from more dominant to more recessive.
The genesis traits are
Fur: Genesis - (Coco - Diamond - Domino - Flame - Smokey - II - III)
Eyes: Genesis (Earth - Meadow - Odessey - Sunshine - Water)
(Curious|Big)
Shade: Natural
Tail: Genesis
Ears: Genesis
Whiskers: Silver (Guitar)
Nen